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De mythe rond siliconen in produkten....

nicknameless

Detailing guru
16 mei 2008
7.095
193
43
Den Haag
Jawel, weer een van het Dodo Juice forum:

=================

Often, we'll get asked whether there is silicone in our products. It's a particularly loaded question because the person asking the question is 1) probably brainwashed and 2) never going to entertain any answer other than 'no'.

What they really mean to ask is whether the products are 'bodyshop safe'.

OK, so let's start with silicone and we'll move on to 'bodyshop safe' later.

SILICONE

Essentially, almost everything in the detailing product world that makes something shiny contains silicone. It's all around. Shampoos have it, polishes have it, waxes have it and sealants ARE it. That's right. All the sealants you see the fanboys raving about are most likely to be pure silicone polymers, amino-modified silicones etc. We even tested a very expensive 'natural' wax and found it drowning in silicone. They are that prevalent you have to assume most products have them in, but also that many manufacturers may cover the fact their products have them in (either for reasons of product confidentiality, or because they worry silicone has a bad press).

Silicones not only add gloss, but they can be water repellent, encapsulate dirt if used in waterless washes, improve workability and buff-ability and are generally pretty damn clever. In fact, people LOVE silicones without even knowing it. It's why some shampoos tend to 'add something' (when you dry with a cloth, you buff the silicone to a shine!). It's why waterless washes and shampoos can feel nice and slippery. Why plastic trim products look so glossy. And it's why quick detailers tend to be the finishing touch for many people after they have washed their car...

So why the bad press?

Well, it stems from bodyshops in the 70s when silicones first came into widespread use.

The early silicones tended to be oil based and were often aerosolised. Being air borne, they could land everywhere and anywhere - and if the landing pad was a spraybooth or prepped car - havoc would reign. Being oil based meant they were tricky to remove, and if you missed even just one silicone molecule on your prepped panel, you could get a 'fish eye'... ie the paint wouldn't 'take' and you'd get a round dimple that would require the paint being removed and reapplied.

Naturally, silicone became the bodyshop's sworn enemy.

There were also some products that contained silicone that reacted badly with rubbers, and even the general motoring community started to distrust or even fear them. Everything had to be 'silicone free', but all the car care industry really did was change the silicones they used and stop mentioning them in the marketing!

BAD SILICONES

Anything in a spray or aerosol has the potential to be a 'bad silicone' IF YOU HAVE A BODYSHOP. For the rest of us, it makes no difference. Bodyshops should be prepping the panel before spraying first, to remove any wax, silicone or otherwise 'slippery' contaminant that will prevent paint from bonding. That's right. Regular beeswax, olive oil, Castrol GTX, KY Jelly or even fingeprint grease can cause fish eyes. It doesn't have to be silicone, but silicone WILL fisheye.

Oil based silicones can be enduring and give good durability, but they can be tougher to remove, requiring extensive solvent wipedowns. Weak IPA (isopropyl alcohol) may not shift them at first. You need a couple of STRONG solvent wipedowns.

If you use cheap products with nastier silicones in, you may find that they are not as easy to remove. Some quick detailers will turn buffing cloths WATER REPELLENT. Some shampoos or waxes applied at the rinse or washing stage, may also contain silicone that turns drying towels WATER REPELLENT. They become water repellent because when you wash the towels in your washing machine, the detergent is too weak to remove the silicone. So don't blame your cloth. It's just textile. See what you're saturating it with!

GOOD SILICONES

Most 'bodyshop safe' products contain what I am loosely terming 'good' silicones. These tend to have all the advantages of their earlier counterparts, but none of the disbenefits, problems or issues. So really the original question should be, 'does this product contain 'good or bad' silicones.

These good silicones could be water based, thus making them easily removed from buffing cloths or drying towels.

Or they could be oil based, like some 'bad' silicones, but simply delivered in a different way. Any liquid or paste product will generally be good to use because the silicones can't float away in the air. They are contained locally to where the product is. So if you apply the product next to a bodyshop, NO PROBLEM. The sealant can't float off the paint into the booth, like an aerosol based product. Believe it or not, household furniture sprays tend to be the worst 'bad silicone' offenders...

'BODYSHOP SAFE'

So now we're onto 'bodyshop safe'. This doesn't necessarily mean silicone free! It just means that the good silicones are in force, ie easily removed and/or non-aerosolised. So compounds that bodyshops work with near the booth, or even in it, could have silicone in. But it's contained in the product. The compounds and 'final stage' quick detailers used by bodyshops may also contain silicones to 'fill' the finish and make it look great.

'NATURAL' PRODUCTS

I have made a 100% TOTALLY natural wax product and guess what? It didn't really work. We favour modern solvents and *some* synthetic ingredients to bolster the natural ingredients we also use. In recipe terms it makes our waxes, 'substantially natural'. All products need a shot in the arm to perform for today's consumers. The products that claim not to contain these artificial additives generally perform way below par or the label's been telling porkies. If something performs way better than it should for a '100% natural' product, let us put it to an Infra Red Spectrometer test... it shows the presence of silicone very clearly. And we've already caught a couple of manufacturers out!

So what Dodo Juice products contain silicones? Well, it's best to divide them into HIGH, MEDIUM, LOW and NONE.

HIGH
Red Mist and Red Mist Tropical (pure silicone polymer sealant technology!)

MEDIUM
Blue Velvet PRO, Purple Haze PRO, Time to Dry (water soluble silicone though, so can be washed out of drying towels), Lime Prime, Lime Prime Lite

LOW
Dodo Juice waxes

NONE
Dodo Juice shampoos, Born Slippy clay lube, Mellow Yellow wheel cleaner


SUMMARY

Silicone content itself is immaterial. It is type and delivery that matters. And for Joe Normal, silicones are no issue unless your drying towel goes funny. A good bodyshop will prep a car properly. A bad one will whinge about silicones when it has been poorly wiped down and fish eyes have resulted. Bodyshops should know that virtually ALL mainstream car shampoos, polishes, waxes, dealer sealants and quick detail sprays will be swimming in silicone and need to fear the worst - the car is covered in silicone and needs THOROUGH PREP. This does take time, and it would be easier if people didn't put anything shiny or slippery on their car to make it look good and keep it clean, but that's car care for you. It's not a painter's best friend. Prep needs to be total and thorough. Panelwipe, IPA, whatever. And multiple passes thereof.

DOM'S GOLDEN RULES OF SILICONE FOR BODYSHOPS

- Stay away from sprays and aerosols near the booth (inc household furniture sprays, anything that shines/cleans)
- Assume all spray sealants and quick detailers contain silicone
- Assume any car you work with will be covered in them, and use a strong wipedown
- Don't assume 'bodyshop safe' means silicone free

DOM'S GOLDEN RULES OF SILICONE FOR PUNTERS

- Not all silicones are bad, you probably love them without realising
- Watch out for cloths or drying towels going water repellent, it could be oil based silicone that needs dry cleaning to remove
- If your car doesn't need painting in the near future, don't worry about them, just enjoy them
- Don't believe '100% natural' labels or silicone claims unless independently verified or substantiated... silicones sneak in everywhere
- If a shampoo or quick detailer adds shine it may be because you're buffing the silicones with the towel or cloth.
 

Tim

Master of Bling
Medewerker
2 mrt 2008
10.358
195
Berkel en Rodenrijs
Dat is mooi op een rij gezet. Jullie willen niet weten hoe vaak wij klanten aan de lijn krijgen en ons gewoon niet geloven als we uitleg geven over siliconen. :no
 

Lexusfreak

Detailing rookie
9 nov 2008
852
0
Voor Bart...


http://translate.google.nl/translate?hl=nl&sl=en&u=http://forum.dodojuice.com//viewtopic.php%3Fp%3D8258%26sid%3Dbed430a630a11012e03810c5767ac64c&ei=8FdHTKWRKcae4QaruZHhBw&sa=X&oi=translate&ct=result&resnum=1&ved=0CBkQ7gEwAA&prev=/search%3Fq%3DOften,%2Bwe%2527ll%2Bget%2Basked%2Bwhether%2Bthere%2Bis%2Bsilicone%2Bin%2Bour%2Bproducts.%2BIt%2527s%2Ba%2Bparticularly%2Bloaded%2Bquestion%2Bbecause%2Bthe%2Bperson%2Basking%2Bthe%2Bquestion%2Bis%2B1%29%2Bprobably%2Bbrainwashed%2Band%2B2%29%2Bnever%2Bgoing%2Bto%2Bentertain%2Bany%2Banswer%2Bother%2Bthan%2B%2527no%2527.%26hl%3Dnl%26sa%3DG
 

Lowlands

Detailing rookie
7 okt 2010
292
0
Oh,oh,my car does need painting in the future!Maar ik heb al gespoten op een paar plekken,wel er voor stevig ontvet,want ik dacht dat haalt wel de was weg....En natuurlijk geschuurd..Maar moet nog meer spuiten op de bumpers,maar te laat in het jaar om dat nog te doen...
 

Centoquarantasette

Detailing addict
6 jul 2008
899
65
De Ronde Venen
Tim zei:
Dat is mooi op een rij gezet. Jullie willen niet weten hoe vaak wij klanten aan de lijn krijgen en ons gewoon niet geloven als we uitleg geven over siliconen. :no
Dat zijn waarschijnlijk dezelfden die Turtle en Commandant in de bouwmarkt kopen?